Birdman (I'm sorry, I don't know your name), or any other RFM owners out there. I've run across 2 people who are having major behavior problems with their RFM's. I have not yet experienced anything like it, but I'm curious as to what you all think, and I'm also getting nervous!

Both RFM's are very young, 4 - 5 months old. They are both screaming constantly. One minute they want to snuggle and the next their nipping and honking. One has become a constant nipper. They're both extremely moody. The owners of these two RFM's are extrememly frustrated.

Has anyone experienced this with RFM's? I haven't. Not yet anyway.

I've found that I have to be ever-vigilant not to reinforce screaming behavior. Pippi wants attention and will start to scream if she thinks it will get it. Just the other night, I had to work for about 10 minutes to give her evening treats because she kept screaming. Each time she screamed, I moved out of her sight and after counting to 10, would softly say hello. But every time I appeared, she would scream. (I was out of town for a week so she was glad I was back.) She didn't get her treats until she didn't scream.

Being diligent to not reinforce behavior you don't want is a full time job with RFMs (I guess most large parrots, too). The very traits we love about them--friendliness, playfulness, excitability--can manifest themselves in ways that make them hard to live with.

I've never considered Pippi to be nippy (I'm a poet but don't know it ) but she can get carried away with her play. If she gets too excited, I'll grab her beak and say "Gentle". When she really crosses the line, I'll drop her on the floor and walk away. That usually lets her know that her behavior is unacceptable.

Most of what I know is from bman (Mark) and reading some of the books found here--
http://www.goodbirdinc.com/help-behaviorproblems.html

I'm sure Mark will have more info. That's my 2 cents after living with a Redfront for two years.

Thanks so much. I really appreciate your input here. And thanks for the link! I'm definitely going to download the articles.

Being that the RFM's are so young, I was suprised to hear about their behavior. But with one of them, I do think her enviornment could be part of the issue. She lives with 3 other birds, and a large dog just moved in temporarily. This is now the nipper. The other RFM, I believe is on it's own with one owner. This is the screamer and moody one.

Mine is young as well, but so far has been easy going and quiet. I guess I'm now waiting for a bomb to hit after hearing about these experiences with other RFMs.

If they are 4 months old then they are just weaned. Perhaps the one that is head bobbing and screaming wasn't weaned correctly or long enough? That can make them have issues. Just a thought?

Yes! I thought that myself too! Actually she's close to 5 months now and still hand feeding. So I don't think she is being weaned properly. Thanks for pointing that out!

I'd say it's probably a forced weaning problem. Sounds like regression.

The bird probably still wants to be hand fed. It's hand feed the bird oatmeal (not too hot! No burned crops please!) on your lap time, (using a bent spoon) and in the process, encorporate some beak play to reinforce gentle bite pressure.

This is where an experienced breeder, who hand feeds and gentles the bird in the weaning process is worth his or her weight in gold. Don't think your bird is gonna act up cuz theirs is. Just remember to thank your breeder!

How a bird is weaned influences behavior, and sets the stage for later in life. Allowing a bird to abundance wean and fledge is a critical factor in psychological development. Sounds like these two didn't get it. Behavior problems are bound to result.

Thoughts on the biting:

1. Has the bird been properly tamed and bite pressure trained?! This is a frickin' baby!!! Perhaps it's just becoming aware, and doesn't know it's own strength yet. It's up to the owner to teach this one. They don't learn it on their own. (On their own, they will chew, and try to see how much pressure they can apply! Can I break this? THIS will end up being a finger someday! And the answer is going to be yes, he certainly can!)

[Again, when a bird is abundance weaned, a good breeder will do this as part of the weaning process. A "do it yourself-er" might not even know how. A forced weaned bird doesn't get the attention it craves, and continues to crave it, leading to an increase in "bad attention" behaviors. There are several studies that show Greys and Toos that aren't abundance weaned tend to develop neurotic problems later on.]

2. They are not getting the hand feeding/attention they desire, so they get mad and bite.

Educated guess. I really can't say without observing them. But that's what comes to the top of my head given the scenario you described.

And no, I don't consider that normal RFM behavior.

I'm guessing these birds were force weaned, not abundance weaned.

Most breeders don't let a large macaw go and finish hand feeding with someone who isn't super experienced. Weaning a big mac can be a tricky business.

This post was last modified: 10-23-2008 02:04 PM by Birdman660.

OK, I'm definitely thinking how they were weaned or not completely weaned yet is their problems, along with the environment. The screaming though, I know they all have their moments, but these two RFM's are screaming ALL the time. I've now just been told that babies or young RFM's are extremely loud, and will be until they are mature. Is this true? I'm finding this hard to believe has mine is fairly quiet. I think the screaming also has to do with the issues we mentioned above.

Mine isn't. (I lived in an APARTMENT when I got her! No fussing at all. It was the stinker rescue conures that raised all the hell...) Mine vocalizes at mealtimes, when I come home from work, and when it's time for bed. You can set your watch by it. It's difinitive. This is "normal" RFM behavior.

And my daughter has flipped that bird over on her back and beak wrestled with her from the time that bird arrived. Sweepea has NEVER broken the skin on anyone who wasn't actually trying to pull her out of a tree and run off with her. I beak wrestle with sweepea using MY FACE! You don't do that with a bird who's even a little bit nippy!

Yours isn't. Pippi isn't. Achilles was an attention hound, who attention screamed for awhile, and then was quickly trained out of it. The six other people I know who have them all say their birds are quiet except for the normal vocalizations. AND NONE OF THESE BIRDS ARE BITERS!

Do these people know how to train a bird?! I mean, RFM's are the easiest macaw out there, but they are still a macaw! If you reinforce the screaming they will learn to scream. And ALL macaws throw tantrums. ALL of them!!! Reinforce the tantrum throwing behaviors, and you have an out of control toddler on your hands... RFM or not.

It's basic to me cuz I've been doing it for more than a decade. Do these people understand the basics?! Cuz it kinda sounds like NOT!

Macaws need structure and discipline (boundaries) to thrive. When the macaw is left to set his or her own boundaries, there aren't going to be any.

---

Oh, and that constantly nippy one?! I'm going to take a wild guess on this one. That bird is a male isn't it?!

This post was last modified: 10-23-2008 01:21 PM by Birdman660.

Mark, THANK YOU! I knew there was something wrong with all of this! And then to say that RFM's are extremely loud, even as babies, I thought was a load of crap! I know my birds are freaks, but come on!

Now I'm getting frustrated as I don't think the basics are understood. Try to tell these people that though, and they'll rip your head off. Meanwhile, they have other parrots with issues a well! DUH!

UGGH!

Nope, nothing wrong with my bird that nipps the sh** out of me and screams in my face. It's part of the RFM personality! Baby RFM's scream! That's what they do!

And then I'm told, "well I hope your bird is the exception." The exception? TO WHAT!

I can't take it.

What do baby parrots who are hungry and want to be hand fed do?! They scream for food ALL THE TIME (unless they are sleeping.)

Screaming protocols say it's either (1) attention/reinforcement related, or (2) a weaning issue. Possibly both in this case.

For both birds: Controlled, structured interaction.

For the screamer:

(1) Cover the cage on all sides except the front, and DON'T REINFORCE THE SCREAMING. Structure the interaction so that it occurs at the same time, for the same amount of time EVERY DAY.

(2) The hand fed oatmeal thing should be part of the interaction.

(3) When the hand fed oatmeal thing is over, beak play to bite pressure train the bird. And touching all over. And rolling the bird over on it's back during playtime.

(4) Set the bird down outside the cage on a playstand with some toys to occupy it, and teach it to self entertain. Reinforce the "stay put." Reinforce the no screaming. (No drama when the bird is noisy. Speak in a soft whisper when the bird is loud. He won't be able to hear you unless he quiets down. ALWAYS REWARD AND PRAISE THE BIRD WHEN IT IS QUIET!!! NEVER REWARD THE BIRD FOR SCREAMING, OR REINFORCE THE UNDESIRED BEHAVIORS.)

THESE ARE NOT RFM CHARATERISTICS, THESE ARE TRAINING ISSUES!!!

You think it's bad now?! Wait til they get about six months older!!!

Please forward these suggestions to the owners of these birds. And show the person with the "biter" the basic taming and training post. Let's stop these bad behaviors immediately, before they get reinforced to the point where it is a major league job.

If they need help, you know where to find me.

This post was last modified: 10-23-2008 01:47 PM by Birdman660.

Mark, I can't thank you enough. I may come back headless as I truly think this girl will defintely take offense to this. But I'll give it a shot.

I'll keep you posted!

Well, that's kinda where I draw the line.

If you come to me for help, and I show you how to fix the problem, but you don't listen, and you don't do the work, DON'T CONTINUE TO COMPLAIN TO ME ABOUT HOW YOUR BIRD IS SCREAMING AND BITING AND OUT OF CONTROL!

I've got one of those too... Do you think it's "magic" that my bird is well behaved, and doesn't pull that stuff?! You need to be the teacher. Macaws require parenting skills...

There is a relatively famous local bird behaviorist that continues to insist my amazons will one day rip my face off since I insist on shouldering them. I make a point to have them roll into a ball for a cheek to cheek head scratch every time I see her. This is the same woman who said my Red Lored was "beyond hope, and would probably never accept humans handling her again."

Now, of course, the story is "I said PROBABLY!"

I sent your suggestions Mark. Let's see if I get a response. I am certainly not going to push this one though. I went through this before too, but with someone who had an amazon with issues. I gave my suggestions and they didn't do the work. I was basically told by that person, "Your bird came like that Wend. Not everyone can have a bird like yours."

Well I freaked out on her. Yeah, I got a magic amazon too Mark! I'm a pretty patient person, but not when it comes to stupidity when dealing with animals. Some of these people do get very offensive when offered help. Whereas if I had a problem, which I have, and most likely will in the future, I would not hesitate to ask for help. It's about the animals, not our egos.

Your local behaviorist doesn't sound too bright. Maybe you should be the local behaviorist! In the short time that I've been on this board, I would ask you for advice in a heartbeat!

My red lored amazon came to me as a "home of last resort." The bird was going to be otherwise destroyed because she was so phobic and out of control that she could not be trusted with humans, and could not be placed with another bird.

This same bird is now my flock leader. The one the other birds take their cues from. The same bird that seeks out strangers to interact with when we are out and about. The same bird that curls up on my shoulder and uses my cheek for a pillow...

YOU CAN'T SKIP OR SUBSTITUTE THE TRAINING OR THE BONDING PROCESS.

This sounds like one Hell of a success story Mark. Would you mind explaining how you got her to break some of those habits?

Actually, she is. She is just kind of A.R. "by the book." She had formal training. I didn't.

I followed rehab protocols. And when those didn't work, I tried other things. (Basically, I made some of this stuff up based on what the bird was responding to. My work with Sallybird was 100% improvised because NONE of the usual stuff worked with her. Nothing!)

I basically am an opinionated a$$hole. If I disagree with the book I acknowledge what the book says, and then ignored it.

Like the stuff about not sticking your fingers in the macaw cage. YES, IT IS TRUE, THAT AN UNTRAINED MACAW DOES NOT LIKE YOU STICKING FINGERS IN IT'S CAGE AND IS MOST LIKELY TO BITE THE CRAP OUTTA YOU UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES...

TAKING IT A STEP FURTHER. Doesn't it make sense then, to do a whole $hitload of training with a big mac (where you feed the bird treats, and do head scratchies and such through the bars of the cage) so that when some COMPLETE IDIOT inadvertently comes up and accidentally taunts your macaw by sticking the fingers in the cage, he or she doesn't lose one?!

So, with me, it's kind of an attitude problem...

If that's gonna be their reaction, let's reward the crap outta them, big time, for not doing it! And, surprise, my bird accepts head scratches and kisses through the bars of the cage.

It's friggin' rocket science!

A biting bird needs to be handled more, not less.

Unless of course, it's Mango...

Mango needs one of those birdie Hannibal Lector masks.

HAH! Great ending to that post!

Well I definitely like your approach. I also think going strictly by the book is complete BS. Every bird is an idividual and they should be treated as one.

Have you ever considered writing about the trainings you've done? For a magazine or something? It could be very refreshing to the bird world, you know.

I'm not really interested in doing that.

In fact, over the past 3-5 years or so, I have gradually weaned myself off of working with everyone else's birds and gone back to working with my own. I still "keep my hand in it" (basically cuz I'm compulsive) on Parrotalk. But I don't teach classes anymore, and I haven't been doing much rehab or foster care work lately. Every once in awhile I help out friends who do, but most of them are smart enough to figure it out on their own.

Understandable. Well at least I know where to find you. I really think you've got some great ideas, great advice, the whole 9 yards. I have visit a few boards and I rarely find something beneficial, until I ended up here.

I had to bleed for that one... especially in the beginning.

I've posted Sallybird's story more than once. She was badly abused, and had learned to inflict "degloving" injuries.

The history I got was this: The pet store she came from did no socialization, and they were . She didn't have anything in the cage with her except one swing because "she was afraid of it." This idiot owner bought the bird without being able to handle it, and without knowing how to train one, because she wanted a bird that talked, and she heard amazons talked real good.

Her former owner was attempting to train her to step up, by beating her with a stick. "I SAID GET ON!" She was 2 years old, or thereabouts, and had was completely cage bound at this point. She also beat her with a broom to "teach the bird not to make a mess."

Naturally, she began to associate humans with "I am about to be attacked and beaten." Just walking by her cage was enough to set off a two hour panic attack!

Eventually, the bird got ahold of the former owner's thumb, and degloved it all the way down to the bone. This led to the bird being taken to my vet to be destroyed. The vet refused, but convinced the lady to sign her over to the rescue.

Unfortunately, rescue protocols called for "stick handling" aggressive amazons. (We didn't know her history at the time!) We didn't realize what would happen if you approached this bird with a stick in your hand... (Let's just say it wasn't pretty.) And if you were using a broom anywhere where this bird could see it?! YIKES! SOMEONE GET THE BIRDIE TRANQUILIZERS...

She couldn't be used as a breeder cuz she attacked other birds with intent to commit great bodily injury.

Bottom line, she languished, racked up a vet bill from injuring herself, and wasn't getting any better. I was one of only two people she allowed to approach the cage. She stepped up for no one. She could be handled by no one. The other person didn't want to take her, so it was up to me. I didn't particularly want a phobic feathered buzz saw in my house either, but it beat the alternative.

It didn't change for the first several days she was home. I actually left the cage door open 24/7. She wouldn't leave her cage. Finally, more in desperation than anything, I threw a towel over her, wrapped her up like a mummy, and dragged her kicking, screaming, and attempting to remove flesh out of her cage...

I handled her like that for something like a week or two. After that I started using the towel on my arm (to keep my flesh intact) and making her step up on it.

I worked with her continuously for 4-5 hours per day, for about 2 months before she was tame. It took another 2 months or so for her to be trusting.

Then I out and about trained her. I spent a great deal of time with her in places like the local playground at he park. Where there were a lot of running, screaming, children coming up to her. Whizzing by her, etc.

I encouraged her to step up for strangers. (No touching!) I had them feed her treats and talk to her.

I put her through a rigorous "de-sensitization" training program. Increasing the startle stimulous, until you could set a bomb off next to her and it wouldn't phase her. I TOOK THIS BIRD TO THE SAN FRANCISCO CARNAVAL - UNTEATHERED - WITH LOUD DRUMS, AND A CROWD OF ABOUT 250,000 PEOPLE!!!

And I did desensitization training with the broom as well. First setting it outside where she had to look at it 24/7. Then using it outside. Then moving it just inside the door. Then a little closer each week, until the permanent resting spot for the broom was leaning it beside her cage.

IT WAS A LOT OF WORK!!! ABOUT 8 MONTHS OF JUST CONCENTRATED EFFORT ON THIS ONE BIRD. But it worked, and she is now one of my most bonded birds and the queen of my flock.

---

Oh, and I also de-sensitized her to the "hated towel."

There was a time when I basically had to coax her to step up. She knew she was coming out of that cage one way or another. Step up, or I will go and get my towel. [Insert amazon attitude here.] Pick up the towel and show it to her. [Insert amazon recoiling in horror and growling here.] Now step up! [Insert amazon reluctantly obeying here cuz she didn't want to be toweled again.] Feed favorite treats, and give head scratches. [Insert no longer reluctant amazon cooing and raising her head feathers here.]

Put the towel on my lap. Set the treats down on the towel. Set the bird down on the towel. You won't like Mr. Towel as your enemy. But Mr. Towel can also be your friend... Mr. Towel is good to his friends.

It's not rocket science.

---

There were those that said what I was doing to her was cruel. I was breaking her spirit. I needed to be patient.

We tried patient. Patient didn't work.

I matched her attitude for attitude.

Nothing I did hurt her physically. And she learned that nothing I was going to do would hurt her. Despite herself, she learned to trust again. And gaining that trust - however you end up breaking through that barrier - is the critical factor.

Cruel is what the witch with the broom did to her.

And continued cruelty would have been allowing her to remain as she was, phobic, going through life in solitary confinement, thrashing against the bars of her cage breaking feathers at the slightest anything approaching...

---

I took this bird on for mostly the wrong reasons. My own arrogance was a big part of it. Someone told me this bird couldn't be trained or helped...

There's that attitude thing again... "I'll show you!"

I kept her because she's an astonishingly great bird, and I got to the point where I just flat couldn't imagine not having her around! I was kinda thinking rehab and rehome when I first took her on.

Now my day begins and ends with my amazon eye preenings!

This post was last modified: 10-23-2008 04:35 PM by Birdman660.