Tonight was the first night of the popsicle stick training with Loca. Lets just say it wasn't a success. haha. Not that I was expecting immediate results - I know this will take time.

I introduced her to the popsicle stick and put it close to her head. She panic called like she does when a hand is near her and kept panic calling the entire session basically - which only lasted about 5 minutes this time. She kept pushing it away at first. Then, after a few minutes, she took a couple of chunks out of the popsicle stick. Hmmmm. Hope she doesn't get the idea to do that to my finger!

At this point I layed the stick on her play gym and she promptly threw it on the floor. Guess that is what she thought of that!

I have been discussing Loca with my husband. She has been with us since March and if something does not change for her in the next few months, that tells us she is doing better with her fears, then we are going to look into finding her a friend to live with at the sanctuary. The directors of the rescue have given us this option from the beginning if we feel it is best for her. This is not because we have given up on her, but because we don't want her to live a life filled with fear if she does not have to.

Honestly, even though I love her and hope we can be friends, I will just be happy if she is happy. If she is the most happy and comfortable with another bird (she was housed with a Grey for 10 years) then that is what I want for her. If she becomes comfortable and happy being in a human flock then that would be great too. Only time will tell.  

So, this was session number one. More to follow. Hopefully some video too if I can get the camera charged. Please send some positive thoughts our way!

This post was last modified: 01-07-2009 09:08 PM by AimraJ.

AimraJ...I might have missed reading it somewhere but did you change Sky's name to Loca or is that another bird??

I wish I knew the right thing to say but can only go on instinct here and that is if Sky (Loca?) has shown that she is comfortable in your home and surroundings then maybe she will never be a "people bird" but just one that enjoys the company of people without being touched (much) by them. Hope that makes sense?

Only you know what your comfortable with though and I wish you the best whatever you decide!

This post was last modified: 01-05-2009 11:55 AM by Sammysmama.

Actually you have asked me this before. lol. Yep, changed her name a few months ago.

Thanks Sammysmama. It does make sense and, I was thinking the same thing for a while. But, my husband pointed out that she still panic calls whenever people walk by her on her gym or if anyone (including me) puts a hand up within 3 or 4 feet of her. It is also always a huge ordeal (for her) everyday to get her out of her cage or off of her gym.

When she is out she just remains in one spot, unless there is food in a bowl on the gym, and will stay there the entire time. I guess maybe I was in denial about how comfortable she really was. I mean, what kind of life is that really for the next 30 or 40 years? At least if she were friends with another bird she could be preened and have someone to interact with and not have to be forced into being handled everyday.

I dunno. These are just my thoughts that I have been wrestling with lately. Again, I wish I could just  talk to her and figure out what is best for her. The last thing I want to do is move her around again, but I will if that is what is best for her and what will really make her happy in the long run.  

Oh, and no training session yesterday. My husband and I both had really bad food poisoning all day. Ugh. We were in bed or on the couch most of the day because it hurt too much to stand or sit up.  

This post was last modified: 01-06-2009 12:58 AM by AimraJ.

Okay. Day two of behavior modification. Day two was much better than day one. Loca after MUCH protest allowed me to touch her wings with the popsicle stick. By the end I was able to touch her head, but she wouldn't puff up for it and instead seemed to simply allow it to happen even though she did not approve. lol. At the very end she allowed me to scratch her beak with the stick as well.

About every 15 or 20 seconds she would decide to kill the popsicle stick and would break off a piece. By the end of our session, which probably lasted about 5 or 7 minutes, the popsicle stick was literally the size of a toothpick. This is not a small popsicle stick either, but the full sized kind like they have at the doctor's office, so she did some work on it! After she accepted the beak touching we stopped to end on a high note. Progress? I hope so!



On another note. I just want to say that I REALLY do not want to have Loca go live somewhere else. I love her and her sweet face. Again, I just want her to be happy - really happy. I was almost in tears tonight when I got her out and she was sitting on her gym and I was thinking about how I said I would give her up if it were the right thing to do. I very much hope things will work out for her at my house and she will stay - even if it is for selfish reasons.

Keep faith. It can be frustrating. I almost gave up on Zoey several times since bringing her home. Its taken her a couple of years to really warm up to me and she improves every day. It can take more time for some birds than others. have you or have you thought about keeping a journal? write down details of her progress day to day or training session to training session...it might help you see the progress in smaller increments? Just a suggestion...

Thanks for the encouragement Holly. I guess I just get worried that it will be the same in two years and she could have been happier all that time, you know? I know I'm probably making this sound far more dramatic than it is, but I just want to do the right thing. I really do want to keep her though so I'm going to keep working on it and hopefully she will give me some more cues that she is happy/comfortable.

That is kind of what I'm hoping to do with this thread. I want to keep track of how she is doing and share it with everybody. Perhaps someday it will help someone else in the same situation? Who knows. But it is helpful to write it down and it also helps hold me accountable to stick with the training everyday.

This post was last modified: 01-06-2009 01:00 AM by AimraJ.

I'd say it's a normal amazon reaction. Freak out and destroy it at first sight. Second sight, recoil in horror. Third sight, oh, it's that again. A little to the left. Now under the chin and behind the ears please...

AimraJ just because the training is not going the way you want,, doesnt mean the bird isnt happy with you... trust me , ok damon is a sweet bird , it took him a year before he came out of his cage on his own . and its still the only way i can handle him is taking a towel and holding him that way ., other then that i see how happy he is his face gives it away,. plus he plays with any toy i put in plus he runs to the cage bars to get peanuts when offered and takes them nicely , yes im still going to take him to mark i know maybe he can be handled but if he never allows it its ok because i know hes happy just the way he is ,, dont give up on the bird its only been a year almost . and some times it takes a longer time ,, look at nimbus , he would scream some times not often never spoke a word , allowed me to pet him and all but never spoke the last three weeks hes been laughing in a laugh voice saying hello in a soft voice and being a bird , something i havent seen playing with every toy he can hes been here a year and 4 months and just recently he started this ..some birds it takes a long time just hang in there ,, the bird will change when its ready not when youre ready .. on the birds term,,,

haha. Good to know. I haven't had a lot of one on one interaction with zons before Loca. It is always good to hear it is a normal reaction.

Thanks Tuesday. I understand what you're saying and I feel the same way about training. And I'm really glad to hear that your boys are coming along!

But, if in the end I know in my heart that if there is a better option for her then I will give it to her in a heartbeat because I do love her. I haven't given up on her, but I do have to be open to that possibility. I'm not trying to push her but I am being realistic. You know the saying "if you love something sometimes you have to let it go..."? That applies here. I do not want to let her go and I'm not planning on it. I just have to know it is an option.

Hopefully the main sanctuary will be built soon and if, in the end, it is the best option Loca could be living in a huge aviary with other zons flying around and doing whatever she wants all day. If her fears aren't able to improve then I do think that would be a better life for her. Why would I want to continue to stress her daily if I did not have to? I think that at that point I would be keeping her for selfish reasons if I knew there was a better place for her. I'm not going to force her to change. She is who she is and I want her to live the life that is best for her.

I'm going to continue working with her and probably will not re-evaluate the situation for a few months. And if she never wanted to be handled and there was not a MUCH better option for her then she would definitely stay with me forever no matter what. But, how could I deprive her of a great life just because I'm not the one who could give it to her?

Boy, do I ever know the meaning of that quote! And yes, you have to be realistic.

I am glad you are giving her more time though and using this thread as a progress journal!
Hang in there and keep the faith!

Oh and sorry about not remembering the name change! (It's a C.R.S. thing! LOL!) Hope you are feeling better today!

This post was last modified: 01-06-2009 11:00 AM by Sammysmama.

Thanks. I'm really very hopeful about this training modification. I know it kind of sounds silly but I could definitely see it working for us.

LOL. Just made me chuckle.

And thanks, I am feeling much better today. Yesterday I was pretty achy and still couldn't eat much, but today I think will be much better.

Ah, third session with Loca tonight. Well, I'm impressed with this whole popsicle deal. At first tonight she was again sure the popsicle stick was going to kill her. She actually even tried to jump to my shoulder and missed (what?!? )

Then she allowed herself to be touched but mostly seemed scared to death. And then - she puffed up. She started making happy noises and stayed puffed up for about 5 minutes straight. Then she decided toe eat the popsicle stick a little and then puffed again. So, a few more scritches and we ended on a high note. The popsicle stick was split a little but stayed whole - it will live to die another day! So, pictures.

                   


P.S. - While it is a little embarrassing to admit (although I know you guys will get it) I cried a few tears of happiness when she puffed up and was loving the scritches. I was just so happy for her to finally get some well deserved lovin'.

This post was last modified: 01-07-2009 09:26 PM by AimraJ.

Congratulations on the progress. Persistance pays off.

SSSHHHHH! SOMEONE MIGHT ACTUALLY START TO THINK THAT I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.... Did I say three sessions?!

Can I say "I told you so?!" now?! (I mean without coming off like an arrogant a$$hole...)

WONDERFUL PROGRESS... !!! I love to see and hear stories like this. I am so happy for you!

Actually, I'm about to start this with Damien... Tuesday's little scared to death, previously abused OWA.

Maybe we oughta sticky the popsickle stick training program?!

This post was last modified: 01-08-2009 02:14 PM by Birdman660.

SSSHHHHH!  SOMEONE MIGHT ACTUALLY START TO THINK THAT I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT....  

Can I say "I told you so?!" now, I mean without coming off like an arrogant a$$hole...

WONDERFUL PROGRESS... !!!   I love to see and hear stories like this.

Hey now. If I didn't respect your opinion I wouldn't have even tried touching my bird with a popsicle stick of all things.

Seriously though - I'm not as much surprised that it worked but surprised to see that much improvement so quickly with it. I'm really impressed with it. Thanks for posting it Mark.

May be a very good idea.

Once you cross the threshold, and the bird begins allowing it, progress comes fairly rapidly, as long as you don't do anything to destroy the trust you are creating...

And what, 3 sessions of 10 minutes or so each... so half an hour total, and the difference in behaviors is pretty dramatic. This is why I get so pissed off at people who say "I don't have time to..." "THEN DON'T GET ONE! GRRRRR!!!"

And as the trust builds, the bird allows more and more with you, and that amazon pair bond thing kicks in...

Remember, Sallybird, when I got her was completely, totally utterly out of control. Could not be handled. Could not be approached. Every dang object spooked the crap out of her. Touching?! Don't even walk by my cage!

FOUR MONTHS LATER... this was a bird that could be trusted next to my face, with my then seven year old, could be trusted in public without a leash or a travel cage, that was recalled, that actually sought out people she found interesting to interact with. So, it really is THAT dramatic...

So, yes, this bird absolutely has that potenital, eventually. There is no reason what so ever to believe that she won't turn completely around in time!!! How much time depends on the bird...

Hey now. If I didn't respect your opinion I wouldn't have even tried touching my bird with a popsicle stick of all things.

Seriously though - I'm not as much surprised that it worked but surprised to see that much improvement so quickly with it. I'm really impressed with it. Thanks for posting it Mark.

The two perch thing kinda freaks people out too, but it works. Basically, it's just a matter of getting the bird used to being touched. And popsickle sticks make good foot toys, they aren't threatening. So you can waive it around the bird's face pretty easily to get him used to the idea. So it just kinda made sense to me. And since I was thinking about how I was going to work with Damien... well, the whole idea here is to try and get the information out there.

The most fun part for me was always seeing a bird like this turn around, and go from isolated, phobic, defensive, to super interactive... that is just one of the best parts of the whole experience. You watch. As they overcome these fears, the "goofiness" comes out more and more. And OWA'S can be pretty goofy...

This post was last modified: 01-08-2009 03:31 PM by Birdman660.

Oh, and another funny thing with this one, that I forgot to mention...

Since you are using these things as head scratchers...

When you finally do get your bird to accept human fingers, and start giving him the left over ones as foot toys. It will turn into more than just a chew toy. Don't be surprized if your bird uses these as a tool for all over head and chin scratches. All the itchy spots he couldn't quite reach before, and suddenly he can, all by himself...

Which is actually quite fascinating to watch.

This post was last modified: 01-08-2009 05:39 PM by Birdman660.

I really believe this is the behavior mod I've been waiting for to break the ice. I'm ready for the long haul on this one.

I will definitely be suggesting this one to others. Honestly with your permission and with proper credit being given to you, I would love to get all of the behavior mods and put them into a packet for the rescue to use. It would be really great for the harder cases.

I don't care about credit. In fact, some, or a lot of the stuff I've used is stuff we used at the rescue. And, we had a little cheat sheet book like that where unusual stuff that worked was written down for "the next time..." Cuz it seemed like there was always a next time...

And one size does not fit all. You try something, and hope the bird responds to it. If he doesn't, you try something else til he does.

Well, I said I would post after ever session. Although not much has changed today - which is fine since we haven't taken any steps backwards.

My husband actually initiated the session today. He is always saying how Loca hates him so much so I told him that he should start doing some training with her to bond with her some. She reverted back to the original sessions behavior and just panic called at him the entire time but did allow him to touch her a little. But, after about 30 seconds of me taking over the session she calmed down and fluffed up for scritches. All in all a good day.

Good deal. I'm sure filtering in some new techniques will be very helpful.

This post was last modified: 01-09-2009 11:40 PM by AimraJ.